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A Question of Performance

A Question of Performance

Exploring sport from every angle.

Ep 44. Tim Hollingsworth OBE – on leadership in the sports sector

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Episode 44 is an interview with the CEO of Sport England, Tim Hollingsworth.

Tim’s worked at a senior level in a number of high-profile roles in sport – including seven years as Chief Executive at the British Paralympic Association, Secretary General for ParalympicsGB at the PyeongChang 2018, Rio 2016, Sochi 2014 and London 2012 Paralympic Games and Chief Operating Officer at UK Sport.

We talk about his views on leadership, what challenges that brings, how he copes with criticism and what his ambitions are for the sports industry.

About Tim…

For seven years, until November 2018, Tim was Chief Executive at the British Paralympic Association, the National Paralympic Committee for the United Kingdom. He has also served as Secretary General for ParalympicsGB at the PyeongChang 2018, Rio 2016, Sochi 2014 and London 2012 Paralympic Games.

Prior to that, Tim was first Director of Policy & Communications and then Chief Operating Officer at UK Sport. Previously, Tim worked for four years as a Director of a strategic communications consultancy, HBL Media, for two years as Head of Corporate Media and Internal Communications at Granada Media plc, and spent five years as Head of Media Relations at the Confederation of British Industry.

Tim is a Trustee of the Football Foundation and a Member of the International Paralympic Committee’s Paralympic Games Committee. He is a former Board Director of the Youth Sport Trust and the National Paralympic Heritage Trust. He holds Honorary Degrees from both Bath and Exeter University as well as a Masters Degree in Drama from Exeter.

Prior to that, he had a decade’s worth of experience working in senior corporate communications roles – all of which builds an impressive CV that saw him awarded an OBE in 2017.

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THE TRANSCRIPT BELOW WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, WE CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

TX: 25.6.19 – Ep 44. Tim Hollingsworth OBE

HOST: TAMMY PARLOUR

T:          Welcome to a Question of Performance.  I’m Tammy Parlour and in this series I’ll be talking with leading figures from sport and business about what improves, limits and drives performance.  Join me for 20 minutes of discussion twice a month to hear a range of views on what it means to be successful, how to cope with failure and what people have learnt along the way. 

Music

     I’m at Sport England today chatting to their new Chief Exec, Tim Hollingsworth.  Tim’s worked at a senior level in a number of high-profile roles in sport.  For seven years Tim was Chief Exec at the British Paralympic Association.  He’s also served as Secretary General for Paralympics GB at PyeongChang 2018, Rio 2016, Sochi 2014 and London 2012 Paralympic Games.  Prior to that Tim was first Director of Policy and Communications and then COO at UK Sport.  So I want to know his views on leadership, what challenges that brings, how he copes with the criticism and what his ambitions are for the sport industry.  Might be interesting though to first hear simply what he thinks is the point of sport?

T:         You did tell me that you might start with this question and it is because it’s such a simple question it’s actually quite hard to answer in some ways.  But I think the point of sport, on the one had you could get quite grandiose about it and say that it’s enriching of life and in fact it’s essentially something that is part of what makes us who we are.  But I think it’s much more simple than that, which I think sport at every level can be a way in which people can just get something better for themselves.  They can actually find something for themselves that they like about it.  Whether it’s simply being active, whether it’s being part of a team, whether it’s a technical skill or whether it’s achievement, success and ultimately that sort of level.  The point of sport is that it offers an opportunity, an outlet for everybody in a way that actually also makes sense to everybody.  So there should be, and we’ll perhaps talk about this, no exclusion from it.  I think the only other point, I can’t think of anything else quite, which offers so much to both an individual, a community and a nation.  And that’s a point of sport as well, particularly when you look at it from my point of view and Sport England, is that, you know, you can easily see the point of sport to a person, to the individual, why it matters to them.

You can then see how important it is to communities and actually building locally, or regionally, people’s identity and how they feel.  And then as we’ve seen frequently, and we’re seeing at the moment, you know, in the Women’s World Cup and the Men’s Cricket World Cup, a national identity as well and a sense of belonging.  There are lots of answers to your question but at the end of the day it’s because it provides something for everyone in a way that can make their life better.

 I:          You’ve worked at a senior level across many different sporting organisations, you we’re COO at UK Sport, seven years at the BPA as CEO now you’re Sport England’s CEO.  Can you compare and contrast those sort of working at a senior level across different organisations?

 T:         The contrast comes in what the organisation is setting out to do, the similarities come in the sorts of jobs, tasks and ambitions that you have in the role.  I was very lucky in UK Sport because I learnt from exceptional leaders.  When I joined Sue Campbell was the Chair, John Steele became the Chief Executive and then Liz Nicholl took over and then that’s when I became COO.  And so I had a vision there, for me within sport, of what leadership can and should be.  And then obviously in the British Paralympic Association it was a huge privilege to be around the time when the Paralympic movement was starting to shift and change rapidly and we had the obligation both to the athletes and the team and the wider movement.  Whereas here it’s very much about now recognising the scope and the breadth of what Sport England is seeking to engage and be responsible for.  So there are clear differences in the way that the organisations set themselves up, the way the organisations are focussed, and the sorts of practise and processes that you encounter.  So each time when you move from one role to another you have to recognise those differences and those different challenges.  But the similarities are about style of leadership, how you want to be, they are absolutely about the challenges of communication and advocacy of the purpose of the organisation.

For me, if you’re not a leader, if you’re not the brilliant advocate for the organisation in terms of what it stands for, what it’s there to do.  Doesn’t mean you have to always be the spokesperson but you have to have that inner strength that you believe in the purpose of the organisation ’cause the title of that old book, “Why would I want to be led by you.”  And in that sense, unless you can really clearly advocate why, and understand why, then all the technical skills about, you know, organisational structures or functions or budgeting becomes secondary.  And I think also there’s a strong sense of similarity across the piece around recognising that at the end of the day a lot of leadership, well almost all of leadership is about people.  And it’s about both what drives and motivates people but also the challenges people can face both in their individual lives and as part of teams.  So, yeah, particularly in three sporting bodies who are all to a degree overlapping and inter-linked, it’s made, in some ways, a very seamless journey.  But each time I found that the individual challenges, that I’m realising now in Sport England, the individual challenges do vary.

I:          I would guess that when you move into a senior position you’re often following another big beast.  Are you aware of that, is that something that you’re conscious of when you change position?

 T:         I think in Chief Executive roles it would be rare that you’re not, and obviously Jenny Price, who was my predecessor here at Sport England, had 11 years in the job and took that through an enormous period of change and growth and focus.  You are aware of it therefore, it’s impossible not to be, perhaps though, it’s a reflection once you get in being in a Chief Executive role that you have to have the confidence and the knowledge why you’re there now.  That you weren’t employed to be a replication of that previous person, you’re there to be the strengths that you’ve got and you’re there to bring to it the clarity of vision and the character that you have as a leader.  And that takes a bit of confidence, actually, not least when something’s been working well and it can sometimes take a lot of confidence just to admit that all you need to do is keep something as it is.  But you also have to have that belief that you have the job that you are a) successful in getting it but also b) hopefully wanted it because of what you believe you could do in the role.  And therefore not be afraid of making change or at least perceiving where change is needed, just because somebody previously had a very strong view.  I mean leaders are never going to be alike and the character of the organisation does shift and change as a result.

 I:          Have you struggled with that at all?  Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome?  Or has it been sort of fairly straight forward process for you?

 T:         There’s a bit of me that will tell you I suffer from imposter syndrome every day of my working life [Laughter] and perhaps always have and always will.  I’ll be honest and say that in this job coming in I am very lucky on two fronts.  One, the environment in which Sport England operates, and to a large degree, although clearly it’s become much more subtle than this now I’m in, I understand Sport England.  I understand the landscape in which it operates.  I understand, I know an awful lot of the, you know, the focus of it, but also more importantly, it’s an arm’s length body of government, it’s a National Lottery distributor.  I worked for UK Sport before, similar.  I understand the political dynamic within government.  I understand the governing body dynamic within sport.  I understand, you know, the focus and purpose I believe of trying to make people more active and why.  So in some ways I’ve been helped enormously by the fact that my previous 15 years were in a not dissimilar environment.  The BPA is still a partner, UK Sport is still a partner, there’s a sort of family atmosphere to some, at least, of the role.

 I:          So you sort of knew what you were getting into?

 T:         I knew what I was getting into.  And I used to joke about this massively, going into the BPA before London 2012, I knew all the acronyms.  There’s a huge thing, where you’re going into a meeting and actually, you know what people are talking about, you’re not sitting back and going ‘what does that stand for’?

 I:          Yes, Google later.

 T:         Who are you talking about and what does it mean?

 I:          You talk about it being public bodies, what are the biggest challenges working as a public body, do you think?

T:         I think there’s a real and a perceived.  The real one is accountability.  Absolutely, categorically.  I have the role of Accountable Officer for Sport England.  So that makes me personally accountable to the government, not to the DCMS but to, sorry, to Parliament, very crucially.  So I’m accountable to Parliament for the money that government gives Sport England.  And what that does is two things.  One, it sharpens the mind.  If you read chapter 3 of the Treasury document Managing Public Money you wouldn’t get out of bed in the morning, let alone make any decisions.  Because the way which it sets out what you’re accountable and how you’re accountable.  But obviously the whole thing is on the basis of managing risk and, you know, being proportionate in your response.  The other thing obviously is just integrity, the recognition that it’s public money and therefore you have to always recognise that it’s not only structurally the right thing to be doing but it’s actually in terms of public perception the right thing to be doing.  This is what we would want public money to be spent on in our view.  So on the one hand it’s a very real thing about the accountability of public money and the duty that you have there.   And the duty also to recognise that public money should be last resort not first resort.

We have scarce resource, we have a lot of money relative to a lot of organisations but we have finite resource.  So we have to make sure that strategically it is focussed in the best, most effective places.  And that can sometimes mean turning round to extremely positive and extremely worthy, you know, programmes or organisations and saying, we’re not in a position to fund you at this time.  And that’s a responsibility.  The perceived one, very quickly, is the other side of the coin.  Which is you’re perceived as bureaucratic, you’re perceived as the dreadful old word, which I hate, the quango.  The idea that it’s a very, very administrative process, very burdensome, not very fast moving, perhaps not very creative.  All of that, like all perceptions, there’s grains of truth in all of that.  One of my ambitions in jobs with Sport England is to make us in the vanguard of being not that.  And actually for people to see us increasingly in the future as an organisation that has an agility and a collaborative approach that is akin to how the world is now, whilst recognising we do have to have processes and governance in place to sustain the effective use of the public money that we have.

 I:          If things go wrong, where do organisations tend to slip up, in your opinion?

 T:         Very rarely on individual tactical things.  I don’t feel, in my experience, it’s one fundamental blunder, if you like, or some really bad, it can happen.  I think it’s much more cultural.  I think organisations tend to slip up when they don’t understand, or they don’t recognise the failings that maybe in their values, or their culture, or the way that they want to behave.  And that can manifest itself either in the sort of behavioural attitudes that can lead people to make bad decisions, maybe it’s a culture of fear, maybe there’s a culture of complacency.  Or actually, it can just be that they don’t maximise the opportunity that they’re presented, because they’re not collaborative.  Or they don’t believe actually that their commitment should extend to wanting to maximise the opportunity for others as well.  So, whether it’s slip up, or go wrong, I would imagine most people would identify with this.  That it’s probably more cultural and more about how an organisation behaves that can be the systemic fault, rather more than it holy missing the point of what they’re there to do, or wholly making an error when it comes to making a judgement call.

I mean we can make 100 different individual decisions, which quite a few may be in the fulness of time prove not to have been the wisest or best decisions but as long as they’re made with the best intentions that’s fine.  Where we’re gonna slip up is if we actually fail to deliver because we are, you know, we don’t actually culturally understand the role that we’re here to play.

 I:          When you look back over your career, the past few decades, is there something, or a few things that you’re particularly proud of?

 T:         Yes. I think I’ve been very lucky in lots of different ways, both before I got into sport…I was very proud of the day in 2004, actually, when I was in a car in IKEA car park in Croydon and my mobile phone rang and it was Liz Nicholl offering me the job of Director of Policy and Communications at UK Sport.  Because I didn’t know it then but that was a transformational phone call for me, because I’m in the role that I’m in 15 years later because I had an entry point into an environment where previously I’d have no engagement.  But I think within that I would undoubtedly say in reflective terms I’m proudest of my time at the BPA.  I’m proud particularly of how we performed on the field of play as a team when I was in the Chief Executive role.  I’m probably prouder of how we were off the field of play actually, in the way we sought to be genuinely a leading national Paralympic committee who understood what it took to win.  But did it with an absolutely collaborative intent and help to grow the movement internationally and played our role.  And also in the UK particularly working through others, not least the likes of Channel 4 and some of our commercial partners, really promoted and challenged perceptions of disability and what’s possible.

 I:          You said just then, ‘understood what it took to win’.  What does it take to win?

 T:         One of the things I would say to there is, make sure you have brilliant people in the roles where it matters.  So, I took a decision in 2011 as soon as I arrived at the BPA not to be the Chef de Mission for London 2012.  Which at the time was seen as being quite a radical decision because the Chief Executive of both the BOA, British Olympic Association and the BPA, historically then became the Chef de Mission, became the lead for the team at the games.  It was the easiest decision I’ve ever made because I’ve never worn a tracksuit in anger and you need to be credible.  And I know that’s not me but I know that it is people and actually if you look beyond London where we performed extremely well, the team were fantastic.  But if you really look through then the Games subsequently, the Sochi, particularly the Rio games and then PyeongChang Winter Games and I’m sure into Tokyo, the team itself was led by brilliant performance people not least Penny Briscoe who’s the Che de Mission again in Tokyo.  And I think it’s understanding the environment and being incredible in it.  I think it’s understanding again perhaps over-emphasising too much, but the cultural aspect of the environment that you create.

So, focussing as much on the how as the what, being as confident about the way in which you’re delivering messages, the way in which you’re providing for services as technically what they are.  It manifested itself for me perfectly in Rio.  That was an immensely challenging Games for Paralympics GB and the build-up, just as it was for everyone in the Paralympic movement.  The games was fundamentally bankrupt and wasn’t gonna happen, there was all that messaging.  The IPC, with our huge support, was making a very tough decision around sanctioning Russia around doping.  It was a pretty uncomfortable environment anyway going out to Rio because the whole Games environment was quite uncertain.  So we had a huge challenge going into that Games and then when we got to the village, as many teams did, we found that it really wasn’t up to scratch in terms of what you were looking for.  Lots of teams, I know this, functionally delivered for their athletes in that environment.  I think we were exceptional in actually creating an environment that enabled them to focus purely on performance and then feel supported at every place.

I’m particularly proud of how, when you say ‘what does it take to win’, it’s understanding it’s how you go about it, rather than just functionally what you’re doing is the missing link of the elite level.  And also, definitely having the right people in the right jobs to ensure that if it comes down to that moment for an athlete no stone has been left unturned.

 I:          I’d imagine you can’t do any of these senior roles without getting criticism at points.  Have you experience that and how do you personally cope with that?

 T:         Yes, is the short answer.  And I’m anticipating every bit as much in this role, given not least our primary function of funding, albeit we seek to be more strategic than just a grant giver, but funding will always attract criticism because the people that are not in receipt of funding are liable to be less forgiving than the people that are.  But equally I had a period of time particularly in the BPA where criticism, I faced a Public Accounts Committee hearing on classification, where the impression that was given then was there was huge amount to be critical of, didn’t actually agree with it but let that one go.  I think the reality is you have to be confident in your own sense of where you sit with the issue that’s being criticised.  Can you defend it?  Can you justify it?  Can you not only that, can you feel that because of the decisions that you took the right thing to do and is also, I keep coming back to this, but is also the criticism around behaviour.  So I had a meeting last week, which I think is quite instructive there, where I heard quite a lot of views about Sport England historically from someone and they were expressed really positively in context of trying to help me understand, you know, where things could change for the better.  And I look upon that as valuable, I look upon that as helpful.

I had one a bit previously where somebody tried equally to express those views and concerns but did it in a way that was, you know, quite negative, quite forceful and quite unhelpful.  And actually I found that that was far less valid as a result almost, possibly in reality not, but the way it was pitched at me felt, and it wasn’t directed at me personally but it was at the organisation I now represent and support.  So in that case it’s also about whether you feel that your own perspective on it is challengeable as opposed to the issue itself.  Criticism about a decision that you’ve made is perfectly acceptable, but you know, making it about the individual concerned, or if the individual concerned has been in some way at fault then you get into the issue of whether it’s difficult or not.

 I:          What’s ‘success’ for you?

 T:         One foot in front of the other.  No. [Laughter] I absolutely think now, success for me professionally, will be a combination of a professional and a personal belief in the progression of sport England.  Professionally I think we have a very clear ambition, which is to really find a new version of sport for the 21st century, that is really much more accommodating of the world in which we operate now.  Whether that’s the sort of digital environment, whether that’s recognising the inequalities that exists within broader society and how they impact on people’s ability to be active.  Whether it’s recognising that actually traditional mainstream sort of organised sports, whilst so important, are not for everyone and that we actually are finding and must find new ways to allow people to be active.  If we can really not only galvanise around that but then try and help to shape that through both our advocacy and our investment then that would look like success for me.  Because what we’d get then is the true end game which is a nation that is happier and healthier, more driven towards their own sense of well-being because of sport.  So professionally, that would be success.

 I:          And personally?

 T:         Personally I think a recognition that we’re trying to be the best organisation that we can be within that, that I’m leading it in a way that makes sense to me, that makes sense to the board, I should say, absolutely.  But most important to my team around me that they feel strongly that they understand and identify with not only the strategic ambition but also the culture and values and how we want to operate.  And I think ultimately that we have a sense of identity actually, that people know what it is to be part of Sport England.  And I personally can take some responsibility for that as it’s Chief Executive.

 I:          Do you feel successful at the moment?

 T:         In the realm, no.  Because I think I’m too early to, I’m still here six months in, so there’s a modicum of success in that.  But no, of course not, I don’t think that that would be fair on me, but I certainly don’t think it would be right on the organisation to say we’ve been successful so far.  And I know I’ve got huge challenges to face up to, which I’m looking forward to.  And I know also that I’ve got quite a bit wrong so far, because it’s a newer, bigger environment, the scale of this job is different than before.  Where, if I’m allowed to, I can feel a modicum of success now, is having left the BPA I’m struck by how that period of growth and success for Paralympics GB and the Paralympic movement did coincide with my tenure at the BPA and therefore people make that association.  And I’m trynna not sound immodest and it’s starting to sound immodest.  But that idea actually now I often get people who are introduced to me as being, you know, that was a meaningful thing.  The Paralympic movement has grown a lot in the last seven years and I have been part of that in my role and therefore it can feel, now I’ve left, it feels like a…But it’s almost more a sort of warm glow than anything more than that.  Just that sense of actually, that was good, I really enjoyed that and I feel like I put my heart and soul into a professional role that was a deep privilege to have.  But no, I don’t feel successful at the moment because I now there’s…I feel a need to be successful.

 I:          There’s quite a bit of shuffling going around in senior positions in sport at the moment, and UK Sport is obviously getting a new CEO, Sally Munday in September, October or some time.  Does that open up any new possibilities for you, or do you see the two organisations as being quite separate?

 T:         No, not at all.  And it’s a great fortune for me that having worked, I already mentioned what Liz Nicholl first did for me by employing me back 15 years ago.  So Liz moving on from UK Sport, I’ve seen it in the CEO to CEO point of view, I feel fortunate that Sally is taking over from that respect.  Because Sally and I’ve known each other, personally, but in a professional context for quite a long time and actually had a stint together on the Youth Sport Trust board.  Where she and I felt like we were there as a couple of representatives of the sport view, in the YST and quite often, if nothing else, used to sit next to each other in the board meetings.  So Sally and I know what, but we think very alike, I know she’s a fantastic leader, she’s again, a real collaborative leader, she’ll be very focussed on UK Sport’s role in the landscape.  And I think she’ll be quite exciting too in terms of what success looks like for UK Sport now, because they’ve been so successful.  How do you achieve and maintain that focus on what it takes to win and the medal success, whilst balancing out the different priorities that people have perhaps now for elite sport.

But, for Sport England and UK Sport I think there are two elements to it.  One, we’re never going to be university joined because our border stop at the English border and Sally’s don’t and UK Sports don’t.  So we have to be equally as aligned with Sports Scotland, Wales, Norther Ireland for the whole thing to work more effectively.  And that’s a really positive part of the agenda, we have good relationship that are growing there across the piece but more with UK Sport I think where we can align is on two fronts.  One, when you look actually at the talent pathway and the development of talent, England is clearly by far the biggest contributor to what becomes the GB team and the elite end of the sport sector.  So, England has a greater responsibility to help develop that.  I think we can do more to join that up and I think we will and I think that conversation’s already under way.  I think we can also do more, really importantly, to make that more diverse at an early stage and that’s a big part for us.  I think there’s a big criticism, unfair, of both UK Sport and then Team GB and Paralympics GB, in that it’s not very diverse or it’s not very representative of the nation.  ‘Cause at that late stage it’s too late, that’s when you should only be discriminating on ability, at that level.

So you have to actually bring a much more inclusive and diverse agenda to the base of the talent pyramid and that’s where we, as Sports England, has much more a role to play with the governing bodies.  So as we seek to advocate and galvanise a more inclusive sport and physical activity sector, part of that must be about how can we make that talent development pathway a more inclusive environment.  What are the barriers of that currently, what is it that’s preventing, you know, particularly around race and ethnicity as much as it is, I mean obviously gender and disability are relatively well served by the elite pathway but it’s particularly about ethnicity and social [unclear 27:25] circumstance that is fundamentally proving to be a barrier to entry into world class success.  So lots of areas where I think we can work together.  The other thing of course is we’re both seeking to find ways to demonstrate the inspirational power of sport in a public context.  So, the more that we can link to, you know, the world class success and the athletes and the medals, with actually a belief in what it takes to be active and why being active is so powerful, then I’m sure we can do more there as well.

 I:          I’m very aware of your time so I’m just gonna wrap up with a few quick-fire questions.  What did you eat for breakfast?

 T:         A banana and quite a lot of coffee.

 I:          Favourite piece of kit?

 R:        Because I’m not good at any sport, the accreditation I used to be able to wear at Paralympic Games as Secretary General got me absolutely everywhere, other than the field of play, which is the one place I didn’t want to be.  So without question the most valuable, if not favourite piece of kit, was my lanyard accreditation for four Paralympic Games.

 I:          Sporting hero?

 R:        Lots of random ones from my sort of Fulham supporting, a few cricketers as well, my two great loves.  Huge amounts of Paralympians, but I’m actually gonna say, and it sounds cheesy but it true, Baroness Sue Campbell.  Simply because Sue has been a constant in my career and has been, for someone who came in from outside, who didn’t really understand the sport network, nobody has shown me more than Sue the power of sport to transform lives.

I:          Most useless piece of advice you’ve been given or given to somebody else?

 T:         The most useless piece of advice I’ve been given, don’t do a drama degree.  Because it was somebody that thought I wouldn’t be able to do anything on the back of having a drama degree.  In fact somebody once said to me it will be like having a criminal record when it comes to getting a job.  It’s one of the things I’m most proud of, it’s made me who I am.  I pursued something I love, almost passionate about and led me to a career actually in communications that wasn’t unlinked that then led to where I am now.  But I now go around telling people, “If you want to do a drama degree, do a drama degree.”  Abraham Lincoln’s advice which is very good; “Whatever you are, be a good one.”

 I:          I wonder if this links to the next question.  Greatest passion outside of sport?

 T:         Well, we’re all got to say our family haven’t we otherwise, [laughs] we’re contractually obliged to say that, and beyond our family, which…It’s probably the theatre actually, yeah it is.

 I:          So drama has stayed consistent?

 T:         Yeah, but has become much, in some ways the theatre of sport has taken over.  I’ve been in some incredibly electric environments within sporting arenas and stadiums as well.  But no, I do have an abiding love of, and passion for, theatre and what it can do and writers and performers who I sort of feel quite strongly about.  But not in a way now that is anything other than a blissful and occasional hobby.

 I:          And the last question.  Best performance enhancer?

 T:         Double espresso.

 I:          And I believe you’ve just got a machine now?

 T:         We have just had a coffee machine installed in Sport England.  If you ask me, ‘do I feel successful’.  A little bit more now on the basis that the coffee machine has been installed after six months, yes.

 I:          Fantastic, well thank you very much for talking with me today, Tim, I appreciate it.

 T:         Thank you, thank you very much for having me.

 I:          Thanks for listening.  You can follow the conversation on Twitter, Facebook and also don’t forget to subscribe online to aquestionofperformance.com

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Ep 34. Baroness Tanni Grey Thompson DBE – From athlete to political influencer

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Episode 34 is an interview with one of the most recognisable names in Paralympic sport and disability rights, Baroness Tanni Grey Thompson DBE.

We talk about how she measures her own performance, the importance of developing a hinterland as an athlete and also get an insight into her current life as a politician. It’s a fascinating interview about influence, impact, and how to leverage the profile you have.

Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson DBE has been a Crossbench Peer in the House of Lords since 2010. Her Paralympian career saw her compete in five Paralympic Games winning 16 medals in total. Over her career, Tanni broke 30 World Records on the track.

She has sat on the boards of the National Disability Council, the Sports Council for Wales and UK Sport, and currently sits on the boards of TfL and the London Legacy Development Corporation.
Her charity appointments include being board members of The Duke of Edinburgh Awards, Sportsaid and The Tennis Foundation and she is a non-exec director on the BBC Board.

http://www.tanni.co.uk/

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THE TRANSCRIPT BELOW WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, WE CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

TX: 1.12.18 – Ep 34. Baroness Tanni Grey Thompson DBE – From athlete to political influencer

HOST: TAMMY PARLOUR

T:          Welcome to a Question of Performance.  I’m Tammy Parlour and in this series I’ll be talking with leading figures from sport and business about what improves, limits and drives performance.  Join me for 20 minutes of discussion twice a month to hear a range of views on what it means to be successful, how to cope with failure and what people have learnt along the way. 

Today I’m with one of the most recognisable names in Paralympics Sport and Disability Rights, Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson.  We talk about how she measures her own performance.  The importance of developing an hinterland as an athlete and we also get insight into her current life as a politician.  It’s a fascinating interview about influence, impact and how to leverage the profile that you have.  Mention Tanni’s name to anyone in the UK and most people will have heard of her.  I asked her first what it’s like having that sort of name recognition.

B:      It can be really nice having that sort of recognition because people are generally very kind and can be very supportive and it can also be challenging, more so for my family because sometimes it intrudes on kind of personal and family time when people come up and want to have a conversation with me and actually my husband and daughter are really understanding about you know if you’ve been an athlete, you’ve been in the public eye and I’m in politics now so in a different kind of public eye, but you are on show most of the time so you have a responsibility to be, sort of polite to people and dignified and try and offer people time, but the worst of that is that if you’ve been in somebody’s living room whether you’re competing or talking about politics, people treat you like a family member and that can be great.  You know people will say things to you and it’s actually generally really funny because they treat you as if they know you and so it can be things like, you’re not as skinny as you used to be or BBC have good make-up artists, yes they do, or you know I completely disagree with what you say.

So it’s swings and roundabouts is the honest answer.  I’ve been retired 12 years and I’m still called you’re that athlete aren’t you?  So that’s the hardest thing sometimes is because my life as an athlete absolutely ended, probably actually ended 13 years ago and I’ve changed, but sometimes the public perception is as if you haven’t changed and you just, you deal with it, it’s fine and it’s still hugely flattering, but I think as an athlete you’re seen, you can be seen as part of a one dimensional person.  I never define myself totally as being an athlete and that kind of event diagram.  So I think for me that’s really helpful, but that’s how I define myself, but a lot of other people just you in one way.

T:      Can you define a point where your popularity just suddenly soared?

B:      It was 1992.  That was clear.  So I won the London marathon in April that year and got a reasonable amount of coverage around that and then Barcelona where I won 5 medals, 4 golds and silver at the Barcelona Paralympics.  So that moved it to another level, but that was as much because Helen Rollason, TV presenter who passed away a few years after that she had been at the Olympics, she’d covered the Paralympics and she showed in a really positive way it was sport and it was nothing else and where Helen was a huge influence on Paralympics Games was that she had been the first woman to present Grandstand and it made the National news it was “how dare they put a woman on Grandstand” ooh you know the World will end.  What do women know about sport I remember back so she sort of dealt with lots of issues in terms of her getting to present Grandstand and she was really good at it and she had this massive influence on the way that Paralympics Sport was covered.  So I think I was lucky my success at those Games and the way that she had a very strong editorial influence gave me a lot of cover.  I think also being Welsh, living in Wales we’ve got a lot of our own media, a lot of our own sort of choice about what sports are covered so I think that helped me as well that if I’d lived in England I don’t think I would have got very much regional coverage where living in Wales it was National coverage.

T:      Many athletes as they grow in popularity realise that they have a platform.  They start asking questions about what do you want to do with that power and the profile that you are developing.  How did you go about asking that of yourself?

B:      I think there was always other things that I was really interested in so disability rights was one of them and I sort of slightly think that sport was a distraction for me for a whole bunch of years, but I think I would have gone into work in Disability Rights instead of an athlete.

T:      Did you study politics as well I believe?

B:      I studied politics at Loughborough.  I actually wanted to do history and they closed the course just before I went so a whole bunch of us transferred onto other courses and I suppose history is really similar.  No intention at that point of going into politics per se, but I think a lot of it was from my family.  You can only spend so many hours a day training you need to do other things and my Dad always used to say to me education gives you choices and that can be formal education or just reading the newspaper or reading a book or just learning about something.

So and this comes back to me not just defining myself as an athlete.  I would try to be lots …. because your career as an athlete can be taken away from you really quickly.  You’re injured, you’re not quick enough you have so little control in your life as an athlete and so for me it was always important to have other things and as an athlete I’d say I had an internal opinion within sport about what I thought was going well or not well.  Very careful about having an external opinion because I think that’s a difficult role to manage while you’re competing.  Having very strong personal opinions on Disability Rights, but also part of it was that preparing for the time that I was going to retire, what I was going to do in life afterwards.

So I think it’s hard, you don’t, even when you’ve got a platform you don’t always realise that you’ve got one so there wasn’t this grand plan for what you know, what platform am I going to use.  For me it was just about having an opinion and having well founded researched thoughtful opinion not…. I’ve got an opinion on everything, absolutely everything.  Most of it shouldn’t be public and so it’s deciding what you want to have a public opinion on and what you should just keep…. So as you know what my Dad would say learn when to keep your mouth shut and that’s a really important skill to learn.  I don’t always get it right.

T:      How does one learn that?  Just by making mistakes?

B:      Yeah and you know thinking about all the other things that happen around and I think you should be true to your opinion and you should say within reason what you think, but it has to be this considered opinion, you can’t just stamp your feet and just say this is the World according to Tanni because that’s not probably a very sensible place to be.

So that comes, with me it came over time and my career was 5 games and you just through time I got more exposure, I became a non-exec and I worked in sport and I got lots of different experiences so I was never just an athlete and for me that was really helpful because that gave me a lot of experience and skills for when I eventually stopped competing.

T:      In 2010 you became an independent cross bench working peer in the House of Lords.  How did that come about?

B:      I sat on…  Actually a small part of it was my life as an athlete so that’s the bit that was public, but the other side of it was I sat on lots of different Sports Bodies so I sat on Sports Councils from Wales and sat on Sport England Lottery Panel where in the early 90’s we had £20m a month to spend on capitol buildings.  So you know that teaches you a lot and then got transferred to UK Sport and was part of the panel that set up lottery funding and I find it quite funny that somebody recently said to me let me explain to you how lottery funding works and I kind of experienced it, was part of the whole process of it and it’s evolved a lot since it was set up and then I sat on the National Disability Counsel which oversaw the implementation of a Disability Discrimination Act.

So I did all these other things.

 T:      Was that a conscious stepping stone process?

B:      Some of it yes, some of it no.  Some of it was being presented with an opportunity and deciding whether you want to take it or not.  I had an idea of where I wanted to end up eventually.  Also when I was competing I did bits and pieces of TV work representing and it’s about building that CV and building your skills because it’s actually David Moorcroft said to me you’re a long time retired and really important and I didn’t want the most important and the best thing in my life to be something that happened 30 years ago and nothing will be the same as competing in front of 100,000 people.  We had demonstration races that I did for Olympics as well.  I competed in the Olympic Stadium the same night Cathy Freeman ran, pretty amazing.  Nothing will be the same as that again, but also I don’t want to always look backwards I kind of look forward.

So there is some consciousness about what I chose to do and how I tried to put stuff together and then it’s taking opportunities and figuring out what you’ve done and the biggest thing I think I was able to do when I retired was, partly to know what I didn’t want to do.  That’s a big step forward and had a bit of a buffer to give me an opportunity to think because when you’re in that, you know you’re training all the time, it’s hard to think about what life is like when you’re no longer in it and for me it was important to have a buffer so I didn’t just take the first opportunity I was offered because I think that’s just really hard.  It might have worked out it might not have.

So in any way to get to be a cross bencher I was nominated and there was an interview process and they look at where you are now, where they think you are going to be in 10 or 20 years time and how you can contribute and they do a simple gap analysis, they look who is in the Chamber, who is doing stuff, what gaps there are and there was a gap for somebody who knew Disability Rights and who understood sport because we’d won the 2012 games by then and there was lots of fairly boring legislation to get through like Sunday trading road closures.  Not big exciting stuff, but things that made the Games work and so I sat through all that and yeah that was partly how I ended up here.

T:      In elite sport which measures performance by medals and PB’s what you do now is more ambiguous.  How do you measure your own performance?

B:      So as an athlete I did absolutely measure gold medals, but I’ve looked at it in lots of different ways because you can have the race of your life and you might not win and you can not be the best on the day and something happens and you win.  So for me it’s, the medal was the big declaration, because that’s the medal tables.  Silvers and bronzes only count if there’s a tie for gold.  They have no values to the team.  That’s the harsh World of it, but we always had lots of different ways of looking at it to track performance and some of that transfers really well into stuff now.

So sometimes it’s, you do it on losing or winning votes, that’s quite an arbitrary measure.  You can sort of measure more internally how legislation has changed or how you think you’ve impacted it, but that kind of reflection is really important because you might not get everything you wanted in a piece of legislation and that’s democracy and it’s okay how you can learn from that to do better next time.  I write speeches, but I might go back and look at them again and think okay was that really the best thing, could I have said it better, could I have said it differently and I’ve got friends who are amazing.  They watch the Parliament Channel, which is above and beyond anything for friends to do, and they’ll just say oh that was a bit boring or um.  So as an athlete you’re used to a lot of feedback and it’s important to keep getting that.  It’s important to have honest feedback and from a place of kind of position of love maybe or because that’s one way that you’ll learn to do better next time.

T:      How would you say you got things done now as a politician or a campaigner?  What’s your style?  Or your super power maybe?

 B:      I try to be collaborative I mean there are times where you have to just stand up and say what you think.  So as a diversity and inclusion of that basic thing and there’s lots of people talking about DNI and it’s all lovely and okay there’s stuff that’s moved on in my life, but I kind of ended up sitting on stage.  I was meant to do a really positive thing about how far we’ve come and actually I got to my bit, I was only doing a few minutes and I got so actually there were 60 people in the room and there is no one else has got visible impairment.  Sticking me on stage doesn’t make it okay.  I think I slightly terrified them, but sometimes it’s, there’s lots of different routes to success and in the law some of it’s the Chamber and some of it can be over a cup of tea.

I’ve got some of my best work done and learned more from sitting and having a cup of tea with someone than sometimes when you speak in the Chamber.  So you understand there’s all these different layers and you can achieve success in lots of different ways it’s not just winning a big vote in Lords because the stuff I do it mostly gets overturned when it goes to the Commons.  So it’s understanding, it’s like knowing the rules of Sport and you kind of need to know the rules of wherever you work.

T:      What do you find the most frustrating?

B:      That’s a really difficult question.

T:      What extinguishes your burning fire that then you have to okay get my head back, onwards and upwards?

B:      What’s really interesting about being in politics is that people are generally quite positive.  I found the Lords a really open place to work.  I find here I know much more clearly where I stand with people.  Where other places I’ve worked it has been, there’s less politics in the House of Lords than there is in the outside World.  I guess the frustration, things that frustrated me, I’ve had stuff that’s been filibusted out, that’s really annoying because this is a really good argument and this is really important and you’ve just done a 40 minute speech to make sure that, it’s really hard for me, but that’s sort of momentary frustration.  I think if you ever get to the point where you just feel you’re smashing your head into a brick wall it’s time to do something different.

So I’ve not yet hit the point where I just think okay this is not for me I need to go away and do something else.  Not yet, I probably will at some point, but I think part of it is I’m definitely a glass half full type of person and I’m looking for the next chance opportunity, the next point I’ve got an ability to do something else.

T:      What is that next one?  What are you hoping to achieve?  What’s in your sights at the moment?

B:      So at the moment I’m doing quite a lot on provision of day cares for disabled people which has been the Post Code Lottery and Universal Credit which is just deeply depressing.  There’s a number of people who just don’t have a voice who are just trying to fight their way through the system and when you’re going through it, it’s hard to see the wood for the trees.  So I recognised that I had a very lucky privileged life in that I was born with an impairment, but my parents protected me from a lot of discrimination.  I went to mainstream schools.  My parents fought to get me into mainstream schools and I got an education and then sport and my Dad was always very keen to tell me how lucky I was and that he felt I had a responsibility to do other stuff and that was never, it was never more than I thought I could do, but there’s a bit of that in me that I just think there but for the grace of whoever I’ve had a lot of opportunities, a lot of chance and that’s we need to do that for other people.

T:      This podcast is all about performance and success and what that means to different people.  What does that mean to you?  What’s success for Tanni Grey-Thompson?

B:      There’s about six different answers.  Success as an athlete was gold medals and it’s not medals it was gold medals.  For me it’s about breaking World records, it was about being on the start line and racing to my maximum potential every time I raced so there’s lots of other races.  If I had to pick my top 10 races probably 4 of them would be races where I won a gold medal at the Paralympics or Rhodes. There’s other things that were important to me.

Success as a Mom because that comes into it I have no idea.  My daughter is 16, she’s an incredible young woman, but she challenges me every single day.  There is no manual that comes with being a Mom, it’s the hardest thing I’ve done.  And being in politics it’s about time to make it better, but you are really conscious that every decision we take every vote will affect some people for the better and then some people will be really upset with what you do as well so there’s sometimes in politics you can’t win and you’re trying to weave your way through some really complex issues.  I would say, I take voting here really seriously and if I can’t explain in five sentences why I voted a certain way, I shouldn’t vote because how we vote affects people from before they’re born until after they’re dead.  Everyone I work with takes that seriously because you have to.  We are part of the jigsaw that makes up this place, but the output of this place affects lots of people’s lives.

T:      If you think of your own measures of success would you say you’re successful?

B:      I’m doing okay I think.

T:      So far so good.

B:      No because I could always do better.

T:      Do you look backward or are you just forward focused?

B:      No, I do look back.  I mean I look back when people talk to me about by sporting career.  I don’t sit and look back at it really at all.

T:      But sometimes you’re taken back?

B:      I’m taken back and if you come to our house there is nothing in our house that would show that either me or my husband have been athletes.  We don’t have anything on display.  It’s not, for me that’s not, I kind of sometimes look at friends who’ve got their GB vests up I think “that’s really nice”, but that’s not how we are as a family.  I suppose I continue to feel I’ve not done enough and actually that’s one of the things that drives me forward and for me it’s quite a positive thing.  It’s like well no okay that was fine, but I need to do more.  That you know it’s that continual thing.

There’s so much stuff that I’m interested in and care about and I want to try and fit… and I think that one of the hard things is being in politics you get invited to do lots of things being involved in different campaigns and it’s being really straight with people if you can’t help them, if you can’t contribute you have to tell them that you can’t because it’s really easy to spend a lot of time being pulled in a million different directions.

T:      Is that something you had to learn?

B:      I think I had to learn it when I was competing actually in terms of some of the roller coasters and stuff I was doing outside sport, balancing training and competing all those things.  For most of my career there wasn’t any lottery funding so I had to work and it’s good, actually I really think it’s good to have other stuff in your life.

I work in London, I live in the North East, I’m away from my family a lot and I feel like I’m constantly spinning plates and some days I have really good days and some days I just think “what have I done”?  I had a day last week where I’d been in the building from 9 in the morning to 10.30 at night and thought “what have I actually done today?”  So that reflection sometimes you know as an athlete you have lots of time to reflect.  You have less time now, but I think that reflection is really important.  My family are critical friends in terms of okay what are you doing and I think to choose and ultimately I choose to be away from my family.  I know it’s quite harsh, but looking at it, it’s got to matter because I’m choosing to be away from my family.

T:      Just going to end up with some quick fire questions okay?  What did you eat for breakfast?

B:      Porridge.  That’s a good day to ask me that.

T:      Favourite piece of kit?

B:      I’ve got a pair of tri spoke carbon wheels which was the first set of really, really expensive wheels I ever bought and they are beautiful and they are in still in a good condition.  I totally lied to my mother about how much I’d spent.

T:      Do you take them out and stroke them now and again?

B:      They are on our garage wall and I’ve given away like every racing chair I’ve had I’ve given away pretty much every set of wheels, I’ve given pretty much everything I ever had to other people apart from these wheels, because they’re beautiful.

 T:      Sporting hero?

B:      Chris Hallam, Welsh athlete won the London marathon in the 80’s, he was incredible, loud, obnoxious, rude, huge friend of mine and he put Paralympics on the map.

T:      A useless piece of advice that you’ve either been given or given to somebody else.

B:      [laughing] useless… Most useless piece of advice I’ve been given is where somebody said to me oh be honest, go on be really, really honest and then six minutes into the conversation they said oh no I didn’t mean that honest.  So yeah when people say be honest I always ask how honest do you really want me to be?  Scale of 1 to 10.

T:      Good advice.  Greatest passion outside of sport?

B:      Sport [laughing] all bits of sports.  Outside well physical activity, but when I say sport I think like the whole gamut and is there anything else?

T:      Fair enough.  Last question best performance enhancer?

B:      Haribo.

 T:      Haribo [laughing].

B:      Yes Haribo, should I say coffee instead?  Coffee and Haribo.

T:      Coffee and Haribo what a brilliant combination.  It’s been great talking to you and thank you very much.

B:      Thank you.

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Ep 10. Andy Barrow – triple paralympian on leadership and inspiration

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Triple Paralympian Andy Barrow talks leadership and motivation. Sport performance. In episode 10, Andy Barrow talks about living in the bubble of elite sport, his time as GB Wheelchair Rugby captain and his current role inspiring other people.

Andy Barrow is a triple Paralympian and three-time European gold medalist. He was a professional Wheelchair Rugby player for Great Britain for over a decade, captaining the team for five years spanning the 2008 Paralympic Games in Beijing. Andy competed at London 2012 Paralympic Games before retiring internationally to pursue a career as an inspirational speaker and mentor.

Website: www.andybarrow.co.uk

Twitter: @AndyBarrow2012

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THE TRANSCRIPT BELOW WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.  BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, WE CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

TX:  15.2.17 – Ep 10. Andy Barrow – triple paralympian on leadership and inspiration

HOST:  TAMMY PARLOUR

[Music]

TP: Welcome to A Question of Performance. I’m Tammy Parlour and in this series I’ll be talking with leading figures from sport and business about what improves, limits and drives performance. Join me for 20 minutes of discussion twice a month to hear a range of views on what it means to be successful, how to cope with failure and what people have learnt along the way.

[Music]

Today I’m talking with triple Paralympian, Andy Barrow. Andy was a pro wheelchair rugby player for GB for over a decade and retired after the London 2012 Paralympic Games to pursue a career as an inspirational speaker and mentor. I’m interested to talk to Andy about motivation, his own and also how he motivates others. We discussed living in the bubble of elite sport, his time as captain for GB and his role now of inspiring other people.

When you look back at your life or your career in sport, are there particular parts that stand out to you?

AB: Obviously you look for your Paralympic Games and it is an obvious one to say London, but obviously that as a home Games was so so special and that as not only a home Games but my third Paralympic Games where I really had the head space to take it in as a life event and not just a sporting event was really important to me.

TP: So just to look back at your career a little bit. Right at the start, what was your motivation for getting into sport in the beginning?

AB: That’s a good one. Straightaway it was that idea that I’d gone through a life changing event in having a spinal cord injury, the fact that I was keen sportsman before – not a good sportsman just keen, but [laughs] was important to me because of the enjoyment. But also, as I say, with having a physical disability it was a really simple thing for me, you were fighting for your independence, which is right up there in the basic needs of things but the most important things we can have as people I think. I think it’s probably second only to your survival, so that was hugely important for me to remain physically fit in order to be able to live my life as independently as possible with the changes that my body had undergone due to disability.

TP: And why wheelchair rugby?

AB: I’ve always loved team sports and rugby was my favourite sport. I’d always loved rugby because it’s a game for people of all shapes and sizes and no matter what your skill set is there’s a place for you. And the idea of working together in a team, the camaraderie of being in a team achieving something together that you would never be able to do individually and then just looking at the sport, just the sheer aggression involved in it – the contact, the speed of the game – it just looked fantastic to me.

TP: A lot of people play sport but you played it at an elite level, why go all the way?

AB: I think it’s your changing desires of what you really want from sport. We all start sport, and I think we should all start sport for fun, there has to be that base motivation of wanting to do something, why do I want to do this? And you start for fun and you start for the camaraderie and you start for enjoyment – you might start for fitness, and then all of a sudden it’s when you start climbing that mountain – you don’t know you’re on the mountain but suddenly the clouds are clearing and you can see what you could do. As an able bodied sportsman I was never going to be fantastic, not because I don’t think I’d have been good enough because I believe you can get good enough through practice, I believe I lacked application. But when I started playing disability sport I realised the opportunity of far fewer people being involved, so that came after the fun the realisation of, wow, where could we go here? And then as you start getting more and more involved you start committing more and more, and you have to have that fun to be able to put down that commitment. You can’t just draw up a brand new person into an elite training schedule because they’re be like, ‘Well I’m not doing this, this is unenjoyable to me,’ but your enjoyment changes and what kind of does it for you about sport changes? And from the start of my career it went from being fun to the thing that was the most fun to me in winning at the very very top level, that was the drug that was the feeling you did it all for.

TP: What happens then when you don’t win?

AB: Do you know it’s hard. Two things it either breaks you or it motivates you that is your power, your anger, your energy to draw from because I’m not feeling like that again ever. So when you don’t win you use that feeling because you don’t want to replicate that. When I speak to school children all over the country and internationally – yeah, I’m at pains to tell them there’s nothing wrong with winning I want you to want to win. And also it pains to tell them there’s nothing wrong with losing because when you lose you learn, you learn something from negative experiences, it’s the giving up that I have a problem with. And so when you lose or when you have a negative experience in life that’s just energy, that’s the fire to push you on to push your further.

TP: You not only played in the team you were also captain and you captained the wheelchair rugby team at the Beijing Paralympics, can you talk to me a little bit about maybe the highs and lows of being a captain?

AB: Absolutely. It’s a terrific honour to be captain to not only wear the shirt that’s a big enough honour for your country, but to lead them that was the proudest moment of my career. And when you’re that first person to get his or her hands on the trophy and you’re a figurehead and you can say, ‘I lead this team,’ that’s huge. What comes with it, behind the scenes, is an inordinate amount of work and many many distractions that can actually take you off your game. The first thing you need as captain is to justify your spot beyond all question; you’ve got to be fit for purpose, you’ve got to be good enough to be there, you’ve got to have the respect of your team mates and you’ve got to be the one running through the walls in front of everyone else. And I don’t mean that you have to be the massive talismanic leader, people do leadership in their own way. When I started being captain I was one of the youngest members of the squad and I’m like I’m going to have to get this done and work, I’m not just going to be your sort of Martin Johnson ‘Follow me because you should because look at me,’ I don’t mean that, that sounds really negative on him but he was a really talismanic character, these people that you wanted to lead. I don’t believe I was like that when I started, I was just like, ‘Look, watch how much I work, this is how much I want it; I want to be your leader; I want to do everything I can to pull this group of people together,’ so it’s that what you do off the court is almost more important than what you do on it.

TP: And how do you pull a group together, how do you motivate them to go out there and achieve success?

AB: I think it’s really important that people know each other well, especially when you’re in a sporting environment and especially when you’re in an elite sporting environment. I made sure that my team knew really kind of intimate thing about each other in the best possible way. I wanted them to understand the way every other member of the team ticked and the achievements we had within this, the quieter achievements; the people who had slightly different lifestyles; people from different ethnicities; people who were a fascinated by a particular hobby; people who’d just done all these things but mentioned it to them. So bringing that together creates trust, it creates a bond; making people accountable without riding roughshod over them in terms of ‘these are rules’ making us agree the rules and take it forward as a team, making my team leaders as well. I wasn’t the best at everything by any means, I certainly was the star player on my team I had my faults in different areas. And just making sure the best people did the best things on the floor and off the floor, and just making sure we were all accountable and all honest with each other. Our coach used to talk a lot about trust, honesty and respect, and I think those are some fundamental building blocks for a team right there.

TP: You’ve talked a lot about I suppose your individual motivations and also that what get a team going. I suppose what might the flipside be? What kind of extinguishes that drive, that desire, did you ever experience that?

AB: Yeah, definitely. I think negative energy is ten times worse or you have to work against it ten times more than you do with positive energy. It only takes a small negative, a small doubt, a small crack and what sport does it applies pressure and when pressure is applied to something small it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So any lack of honesty or trust within the team or lack of respect between people, or a feeling that maybe somebody wasn’t doing as much as training as somebody else that’s a fairly innocuous little thing that’s going to just tear out into a chasm when you find yourself two or three down in a semi-final so it’s kind of really important to safeguard against it. And obviously there’s times behind closed doors on international teams where people have got to be frank with each other, it’s elite sport and you’re deriving your fun a different way. I don’t want to say it’s not fun because it’s tremendously fun for the people involved, but you’ve got to make sure that you’re always there for someone, you’re always rallying round them and able to really help through the dark times, and likewise, to be fallible enough to admit that you get some times where you question yourself, question your motivation and your ability, so managing that and keeping that balance, I think is hugely important. Balance is a massive word that you need to bring into the equation as you get more mature as a sports person.

TP: You’ve retired now from professional duty, how do you know when it’s the right time to retire?

AB: I think what you have to do is you have to have that ability to take a massive step back and really look at the bigger picture. And what you’ll find is the very best athletes have that ability to do that both on and off the court, both within their life and professionally. Because as athletes we spend all our time obsessing over the details but you have to be able to step back and understand what it’s for. And the perspective on that is the idea that elite sport is a fascinating bubble but it is just that and it’s a small part of your huge life. So to be able to step back and understand what it means to you then gives you a decent perspective on when to make that choice, and it could be for a number of reasons. Now for me there are a couple of key factors, it was obviously my life outside was changing, I’d met the person I wanted to spend the rest my life with; I’d done three Paralympic Games; I done the home Games; I’d won medals in European championships but I hadn’t won medals in world championships or Paralympics, but I looked at the opportunities I’d have in the future to win those medals and the work that would need to be done to lead to those opportunities, and it no longer added up for me. And even the idea that I’d even considered any of that, I think lets you know that you’re at a turning point in your career and you need to make serious choices about what way you want to go, because for me it’s 100% job and you’re in or you’re out and there’s no grey area.

TP: You’re now a motivational speaker and you go around the country, you also talk internationally, what do you find that people latch onto?

AB: I think people do latch onto the big picture, people see you as a person with a disability, as a person who was going along minding their own business and something bad happened to them and then they overcame that. I’m always really careful to point out to people that we generally don’t give ourselves enough credit as humans of what we can achieve when we’re under pressure when our backs are against the wall, and I say, “Look, if it happens to you it’s happened you can’t change it. Am I really grateful that you’re impressed by that but everyone has their own stuff to deal with – you can see mine and maybe the way I came about having a disability by having an accident or the fact that I use a wheelchair is a bit more headline than maybe somebody who is looking after a sick husband or wife.” And also they do latch onto the inspiration but I do like make that clear distinction between inspiration and motivation, there is a very – for me, the really simple way of putting it is inspiration is potential energy, motivation is actually kinetic energy actually doing something with it. You can be as inspired as you want, you can go away feeling fantastically inspired from a book, a TV programme, a sporting event, a life event, a person, if you do nothing with it that energy is just going dissipate. That’s really important to me that people take action off of the back of something because I always like to say if you want to feel what inspiration is like just go and get yourself a double Espresso because that buzz is similar, then if you do nothing with it nothing happens.

TP: That’s a really really good point. How can people push themselves over, does it have to come from within motivation?

AB: There are a few big things you can’t control but only a few, everything else you could control and you could control the way you react to everything. Every single person has had the worst day of their life and every single person living and breathing listening to this podcast at this point has absolutely got over that and moved on. And it’s just that perspective for me.

TP: Is motivation a decision then?

AB: I think so, I think it’s a choice and it’s one of the many thousands of choices we have. Obviously, your attitude governs your level of motivation and your wellbeing governs your attitude, so there are all these small things we can do to make sure that our choices are that much more positive or the ones that we wish to select, but it is up to you at the end of the day.

TP: Reflecting on what we’ve talked about, how would you define success or performance?

AB: Oh that’s good, success is good for me because I spend a lot of time answering questions in and incredibly long winded way if you ask anyone that knows me. Somebody asked me recently and I just said success is what makes you happy. Performance that is how you carry something out. Again, that’s another thing that all us sort of elite sports people and sports psychologists like to try and un-blur the whole result versus performance, you can win a game of football two nil and play awfully and you can lose a game football two nil and be the best player on the pitch, that’s not performance. So performance is how you carry something out and it’s up to you to sort of govern how positive you want that to me. And by monitoring your performance is obviously a way to potentially chart games success, as well keep track on any sort of negative trends and losses.

TP: I’d just like to ask you a few quick fire questions now. What did you eat for breakfast?

AB: This morning? Pineapple. How lucky am I? Chopped up pineapple.

TP: [Laughs] Your favourite piece of sports kit?

AB: Oh, my rugby wheelchair, without doubt.

TP: Sporting hero?

AB: Johnny Wilkinson.

TP: Why?

AB: The work – I don’t subscribe to talent, I believe you get talent through work. The humility as well I think.

TP: Most useless piece of advice that you have either been given or given to somebody else?

AB: God, the most useless? I can’t even think.

TP: Okay, let’s flip it round then, what’s the best piece of advice you’ve been given?

AB: I just think it’s just work as hard as you can every day. If you give your 100% is the best bit, or that’s all you can do. Your 100% changes every day, some days you feel crap and your 100% looks small but it’s still your 100%, give your 100%.

TP: Greatest passion outside of sport?

AB: Travelling and music.

TP: And last one, best performance enhancer?

AB: Training.

TP: [Laughs] That’s brilliant, Andy. Thank you so much for talking to me today.

AB: More than welcome.

TP: If you want to get in touch Andy you can do so via his website that’s andybarrow.co.uk or via Twitter at andybarrow2012.

[Music]

TP: Thanks for listening. You can follow the conversation on Twitter, Facebook and also don’t forget to subscribe online to aquestionofperformance.com.

[Music]
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Ep 3. Hannah Cockroft MBE – paralympic champion on winning

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hannah-cockroftIn episode three, Hannah Cockroft MBE talks about what it feels like to win and what success means to her. Undefeated for 7 years, she talks candidly about losing to Kare Adenegan in 2015 and why she is so determined to stay at the top of her sport for as long as possible.

Hannah Cockroft MBE has won every major title she has competed for since making her international debut in 2011, dominating the T34 wheelchair racing class. Most recently she has won 3 gold medals in the Rio Paralympics, achieving success in 100m, 400m and 800m races. An accomplished speaker, Hannah is patron of five charities, she works closely with various disability groups and actively campaigns on disability issues.

Visit Hannah’s website here.

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THE TRANSCRIPT BELOW WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.  BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, WE CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

TX:  1.11.16 – Ep 3. Hannah Cockroft MBE – paralympic champion on winning

HOST:  TAMMY PARLOUR

[Music]

TP: Welcome to A Question of Performance. I’m Tammy Parlour and in this series I’ll be talking with leading figures from sport and business about what improves, limits and drives performance. Join me for 20 minutes of discussion twice a month to hear a range of views on what it means to be successful, how to cope with failure and what people have learnt along the way.

[Music]

Hannah Cockroft talks about winning Paralympic goldSo I’m here with Hannah Cockroft who is not long back from winning three gold medals at the Paralympic Games in Rio. Hannah dominates the T34 wheelchair racing class and is a world record holder in the 100 metres, 200 metres, 400 metres and 800 metres…honestly if I think I read all her achievements we’d not really have much time left to talk.

[Laughter]

What would you say you’re most proud of?

HC: For me, I don’t know, strange but it’s a question I get asked a lot. I think in Rio I kind of hoped coming out of it that one medal would mean more to me than the others but each medal has its own specific meaning. So the 100 metres was my favourite event, my strongest event and the only one that I could retain from London; the 400 I broke the world record in so it was my best race, but the 800 was the hardest to win it was the biggest challenge so it’s tough to prioritise the real medals. But I think, in general, I’m probably most proud of probably my London medals, that was a home game was the first Games and it’s just so many memories what happened there and what went into getting there. And I just don’t think anything can ever beat that, nothing can ever beat being a Great Britain athlete at a Great Britain Games – your first Games you’re 21 years old and you’ve won both races, so yeah probably them [laughs].

TP: You said the 100 metres is your favourite, why is the 100 metres so special?

HC: I think just…I’m just good at it!

TP: [Laughs] Ah, there we go!

HC: I just enjoy it, I find it exciting to train for, I like working on the sharpest rather than going out and doing miles and miles of pushing and it’s the one that I most dominate. No-one’s ever got close to me in the 100 metres so it was the one that I guess the most pressure was on that one because it was expected, but it is the one that I just enjoy the most.

TP: You have won an awful lot, what does it feel like to win?

HC: For me, to be honest, the only reason why I train is because I like the feeling of winning. If I wasn’t winning, I probably wouldn’t do this sport [laughs]. It’s just a brilliant feeling and it means that you’re still the best, the best on the side line, the best in the world whatever it might be. I love – I’m not going to lie – I love the glory that comes off the back of winning. Training isn’t always that fun, but, actually, the things that you get to do off the back of winning are just incredibly really. When you actually win – it depends what race it is, if it’s just a domestic race it’s kind of just like, ‘right, okay, that’s another one done, tick it off the list, another time to qualify for whatever championships we’re going for that year, get on with the next race.’ And it’s something like the Paralympics kind of came across the line and it was strange in Rio because you want to go round, you want to do your victory like you want to really celebrate and we were being made to stop and turn around and go straight to the media and it didn’t really give me time to think or celebrate.

TP: [Over speech].

HC: Yeah, you didn’t really get time to be excited about what you’d just done it, it was like, ‘Right, stop, next race,’ and it was about giving yourself that time. And, for me, it was nice in Rio because I could see my Mum and Dad in the crowds and I think that makes it special when there are people that have been through the whole journey with you. Hopefully it’s as exciting for them as it is for me [laughs].

TP: Is there a dark side; is there a stressful side to success? Because there’s a lot of pressure, you’re the one to beat.

Hannah Cockroft Women's 800m - T34HC: Yeah, there’s loads of exploitation that goes along with it and that can be really tough to manage, especially when it comes from people who don’t really know what it’s like to win. People think they’re being nice saying, ‘Oh, you’re going to win it, there’s no pressure, there’s no doubt,’ there’s none this and you’re just like, well, actually there is because you’ve just put it on there by saying that. So normally people are trying to be nice by saying it, but then there’s the other side of it where people put the pressure on by saying someone else is going to beat you. So, for me, in Rio obviously there was 15 year old Carrie, Carrie was the first girl to ever beat me, which is not great. But just going to Rio and it was all like there was the rivalry they were building up, and once it’s been built up so much you start to believe it yourself and I had to keep trying to remind myself that’s not really there, I am still two seconds ahead in every single race and this is something that other people are making up. So yeah, it is a lot about controlling what your mind is thinking and trying to remind yourself in your head I’m doing this for me I’m not doing this for anybody else. Whatever happens on that track, I’ve done the hard work and nobody else. And, at the end of the say, I know what I can do and nobody else can, so I think I proved that in Rio [laughs].

TP: You mentioned Carrie being your first defeat it was in 2015 I think?

HC: It was.

TP: And it was your first defeat in seven years?

HC: It was.

TP: I read something that was saying you described it as being a wake-up call?

HC: Yeah.

TP: Can you talk to me about that, how did it feel to be defeated?

HC: Horrible, it was that horrible. And even though again it was only a little domestic meet there was no-one really there watching and it wasn’t my greatest day; I wasn’t really focussed on the race. It was our last race before flying out to the World Championships, we went in and, the thing is, when we’re racing domestically we’re up against the same six/eight girls every race, every weekend of the whole summer and it gets to the point where you know who’s going to come first, you know who’s going to come second and you know who’s going to come third. And I think I just went into the race in that mind-set of basically that I can’t be bothered to be here, there’s no point in being here I’m going to come second to the high classification girl and that’s how it’s going to finish, and so I went into the race and I just completely switched off. But actually, when I crossed the line and realised what had happened, I think the worst thing for me was knowing no-one else noticed it had happened. I’d upheld this undefeatable title for so long and once it had gone no-one cared aside from me. I came across the line and the other girls turned around and it was like, ‘Well done, well done’ and my friend was in the race and she was like, ‘What’s wrong? Did you not do a good time?’ And I was like, ‘Did you not realise I’d just got beat?’ And she was like, ‘Oh, I didn’t even notice.’

TP: [Laughs].

HC: Well, right okay, well I’m glad I worked so hard at trying to keep this up then! It was, it was just horrible and it was tough because it was a day when we had to do several races in a day, which we normally do when we’re just racing domestically and it was tough to get my mind back in the right place to go out and compete again against the same girls.

TP: I suppose the question that most of us are much more used to losing.

HC: [Laughs].

TP: I’m defeated quite regularly [laughs]. How do you flip that switch? How do you go from being utterly devastated to the flicking the switch and going out and winning again?

HC: You’ve just got to have a good team around you really. I came in and obviously I had my management team there, I had – not even really my coach someone’s coach – and they came over to me and the coach and I said “I’m not going to back out, I’m not racing I’m going home and I’m not racing again today” and he said, “If you go home, you might as well quit because you’re not the athlete I thought you were.” And when someone you really respect says that to you, you just kind of think, ‘Yeah, I’m being silly. What am I doing?’ I know what exactly what I did wrong in that race, I know that I switched off, I know I can push better, and basically the next race was the 800 the one that I’m always worried about and I just thought if I’m going to get beat I might as well get beat in the race I don’t like [laughs], so I just went out and just played a safe race really. After speaking to people it was like I know that that’s not me, the person in the chair that day was not me, and I went out and raced again to just, ‘Right okay, so that happened, that’s finished, let’s start the next seven years, just put it to one side.’ It’s a big turnaround to make in a matter of maybe an hour between races, but yeah if you’ve got the right people to talk to and to set you back on your way then that’s the way it works I think.

TP: So what’s a day in the life of Hannah Cockroft?

HC: [Laughs].

TP: Talk to me about what you did yesterday?

HC: There is no typical day in the life of Hannah Cockroft! Yesterday was a very surreal day, we started it down in London, we went back to the Olympic Park back in the Olympic Stadium with one of my sponsors, BT, they were doing a big launch of a new initiative and I was there to kind of support that. And then we got helicoptered back up to Leeds.

TP: As you do! [Laughs].

HC: I do that every day, obviously.

TP: Obviously, yeah.

Hannah Cockroft Gold medalsHC: So an hour and twenty in a private chopper was great back up to Leeds, back for the Yorkshire Homecoming, so they had their Rio Hero’s Day and it was just kind of just a really strange day. And I’m excited about the helicopter and I’m tired from a morning of doing loads of interviews and then you get in an open top car by yourself and basically driven through thousands of people all screaming at you and getting excited about what you’ve just done, and it was like just…oh, I don’t know, you go to these things and you don’t really know what to expect and you’re like…yeah it sounds a great idea, but nah I’m not going to get too…I’m not going to get too over the top with it and…it was just phenomenal to have that many people. When we were in Rio you’re kind of in this bubble where you have no idea what’s happening at home, you have no idea what’s happening outside of the village really; you’re concentrating yourself and your performance and you’re just living in a selfish little world. And then you come and you just realise that all these people, plus more, were supporting you or were watching what you were doing and were believing in you and it kind of blows everything that you’ve just done to a whole bigger level. You look at the medals and you’re like oh, I’ve done really well and you realise, number one, how many other people were involved; but number two, how many other people are genuinely excited about what you’ve just done – it just makes it all so much bigger, it makes it all so much grander and more exciting I guess. Because it’s great to look at the medal but sometimes it’s a bit like, mmm, was it worth it sat on that track?

TP: I was just going to say, how are you at celebrating success?

HC: Rubbish! I’m very much a person who…

TP: Onto the next?

HC: Yeah. I’ll set a target and I’ll get it and I’ll be like right, what’s now? So as soon as I came off the track in Rio it was like right, now I’ve got to pack my chair, right now I’ve got to get anti-doping. At no point did I really sit and look at the medal and think, ‘Oh my God, I’ve done it.’ I think I went to Rio believing that I could win three medal golds but not really believing it, if that makes sense? I knew I could, but…it was whether I was in the right mind-set on the day and…yeah, it was weird, you kind of never…I still haven’t really sat down and thought about wow, I’ve worked for four years and I’ve actually done what I said I’d do. I’ve just come back and done all these amazing things and just been like, yeah, that’s cool, let’s do some more.

TP: [Laughs]. So as far as training goes, you’re in a [unclear speech 11:29] at the moment?

HC: Yeah, so I’ve taken a couple of weeks out, I’ll probably get back into light training next week just because I agreed to do my leg in the Yorkshire marathon so it’s split into a relay and I always do a leg, and I feel like if I don’t get in my chair before that I might have problems.

[Laughs].

But then yeah, probably get back into proper training in November time.

TP: So for someone who has achieved so much, what are your top two goals at the moment?

HC: Well there’s only a top one goal really to keep winning! Yeah, just…

TP: How long do you think you can sustain that for?

HC: It’s getting harder and harder every year. I’d love to say I can keep doing it until Tokyo, that’s obviously the aim I want to be in Tokyo.

TP: You say getting harder, it’s an ageing thing, is it a competition thing, is it some…?

HC: It’s a competition thing, it’s every time there’s a Paralympics, every time there’s the World Championships, every time Channel 4 shows some support a new face comes in; someone new is inspired, someone new is motivated to take up the sport, and it’s amazing how much talent is just sat at home not believing in themselves. And obviously I’m getting to a place now I’m 24 so I’m still young, but I’ve been in this sport for nearly 10 years so there’s getting less and less things that I can change, that I can develop. I can only get stronger and getting stronger takes a lot of time, whereas a lot of the girls they’re new so they can change their chair, they can change their technique and they can change how they’re sitting, there are so many things that they can kind of change to make them go faster, which isn’t actually getting in the gym or getting out on the road or the track and putting in the hard miles.

TP: Yes. How does someone beat Hannah Cockroft?

HC: Beat me?

TP: Yes.

HC: They can’t – no, I’m joking!

TP: [Over speech]. [Laughs].

HC: Honestly, I think it’s all down to confidence. I always say to people if you believe you can do it then you’ll do it. And you know what, the problem with the problem with the girls I race against is they come in and they expect me to win, so straightaway on the start line they’re talking themselves down. I would never go into a race and look at another girl and be like, ‘She going to beat me.’ She could beat me if I’m thinking that she can, but actually she won’t because I know that she thinks that I’m going to beat her, and I genuinely think it’s all in your head. All the girls there are strong enough to beat me they just don’t push themselves hard enough I don’t think.

TP: Right it’s been brilliant talking to you today. I’ve just got some quick fire questions [over speech].

HC: Go for it!

TP: What did you eat for breakfast this morning?

HC: Well I had Crunchy Nut Cornflakes before I came out, but then I had bacon butty on the train.

[Laughter]

TP: Favourite piece of sports kit?

HC: Oh favourite piece of sports kit? Probably my vest from London 2012. Yeah, probably.

TP: Sporting hero?

HC: Chantal Petitclerc.

TP: And why?

HC: She’s the most decorated female Paralympian ever.

TP: She’s Canadian isn’t she?

HC: She’s Canadian, yeah. I think she won 20 gold medals.

TP: Amazing.

HC: And I was lucky enough to have her as my coach in the Paralympics in London so she’s just a phenomenal lady and…yes, she’s my hero. [Laughs].

TP: Most useless piece of advice you’ve either been given or you’ve given to somebody else?

HC: Oh man! I’ve probably given loads of rubbish advice. Most useless piece of advice I’ve been given. That’s really hard. I’ve no idea.

TP: Don’t worry if you can’t. Greatest passion outside of sport?

HC: Music. [Laughs].

TP: And best performance enhancer?

HC: Oh, strawberry laces.

TP: Strawberry laces? [Laughs].

HC: Yeah because they make go quick.

TP: Really?

HC: I eat them before every race. You’ve got to get your strawberry laces in.

TP: Fantastic. It’s been brilliant, thank you so much.

HC: Thank you.

[Music]

TP: Thanks for listening. You can follow the conversation on Twitter, Facebook and also don’t forget to subscribe online to aquestionofperformance.com.

[Music]
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